【石丸伸二①】恥を知れ、政治屋！風雲児の一撃は女帝に届くか【都知事選対談】

【石丸伸二①】恥を知れ、政治屋！風雲児の一撃は女帝に届くか【都知事選対談】

It’s already the fifth day of the campaign, huh? Yes, it feels like it’s gone by in a flash, but it’s already been five days. Honestly, I watched your online debate yesterday. It looked exhausting. I mean, you’re out in the streets giving speeches, then you’re doing interviews, filming, and all that. Are you getting any sleep? Here and there. But I’ve always been the type who can get by on little sleep. Oh, really? Yeah, I’m totally fine for now. By the way, how many hours did you sleep yesterday? About four and a half. Four and a half, it really catches up to you, doesn’t it? It does. But right now, the heat is more of a concern than lack of sleep. It’s getting hot, isn’t it? Oh, yeah, it’s the middle of summer. Thank you so much for coming all this way in this heat. I was looking forward to it. Really? Yeah. I saw your YouTube channel. Someone told me you featured the mayor of Akitakata on your show. I was like, Really? Seriously? You shared it on X, too, right? We’re the same age, actually. Right, born in ’82. The Evangelion generation. Shinji, right? Yes, Shinji. It’s really impressive that someone from our generation is running for Tokyo governor. Yeah. I feel like it’s time for our generation to step up. Oh, is that how you feel? I looked into the ages of past governors, and they were all in their 60s. That’s right. Most governors have been pretty senior. Yeah. Koike, the one before her, Aoshima, and even before that, all in their 60s. If a 40-year-old became governor, Tokyo would suddenly get a lot younger. Definitely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you decided to run, and you have those three key points, right? –Political reform, urban development, and industrial creation Yes, it’s out. The trump card. –Political reform, urban development, and industrial creation Yes. The one that I was talking about when I was the mayor of Akitakata, we did consult about it. –Political reform, urban development, and industrial creation But I concluded that it would be best to present the same thing here in order to speak in my own words and, above all, to make it persuasive. So there were other options. There were. There were 100 promises we could make to everyone. We talked about that, but the grains would be too small and there would be some lies if we tried to force 100 of them. I don’t think there’s anyone other than the incumbent who can put up 100 of them. Yeah, it’s too detailed. That’s right. We’ll think about it as we go along, or have the staff think about it. So, there are three main axes. And within each of them, there are three points, for a total of nine at most, that can be appealed to in this election, so I dared to narrow it down. It’s narrowed down, and it’s the same as the old one, so there’s consistency. That’s right. This is the axis of my life, and I’m confident in it. The three are political reform, urban development, and industrial creation. –Yes. This political reform is the biggest theme because it’s the first one. Of course. This political bond is what caused a whirlwind in Akitakata City. Yes, yes. –The battle and the use of YouTube. Yes, yes. Are you going to do that in the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly as well? Not exactly. The exact same reproduction may not happen in the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly. This is because I’ve read the minutes of the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly. The discussions are already in place. Maybe it’s because of the competence of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government staff. For now, it’s in good shape. I see. And no one dozing off? I heard there’s some of that, but that’s due to the structure of the assembly. The questions and answers are incredibly slow-paced. I see. There’s room for improvement there, but making immediate changes to the content itself… well, that’ll come with time, I think. Ah, so you’re not going to replicate the Akiotaka battle, but you did say you want to increase the number of subscribers to the Tokyo Metropolitan Government’s YouTube channel, right? Yes, of course. In fact, I’m sure we can achieve that. The current view count is really low, isn’t it? I think that channel is at the top of the list of wasteful projects to be abolished. There it is. Your signature move. The unprofitable business. –Exactly. Speaking of cost-cutting, this is ridiculous. I think it needs to be reviewed. Everyone in Tokyo, please check out the YouTube channel. It’s the official "Tokyo Metropolitan Government Videos." It has about 170,000 subscribers, while Akiotaka has 260,000, the highest in Japan. You can’t compare it to Akiotaka. Tokyo has 14 million residents, and only 170,000 are subscribed. And look at the mountain of videos there, and how few views they have. It’s common to see 100 or 200 views. Right. Hundreds of views per video. Looking at that and the videos Akiotaka is making now, I wonder if local governments never had the idea of using YouTube effectively. What do you think is the fatal flaw, or the main area for improvement, in Tokyo’s channel? Ah, it lacks soul. Oh, I see. It’s abstract, but… You hit the nail on the head. There’s no awareness of using YouTube effectively. It stops at using YouTube, which is not wrong from a civil servant’s perspective. They make videos and upload them. Tokyo has uploaded tons, and you should check them out. They’re really well made. They’re edited, have captions… They’re spending money on them. Yes, the videos themselves are high quality. But the content is just a bunch of stuff with no clear message, so it doesn’t sell. On the other hand, Akiotakata doesn’t do much editing, it’s all about the raw material. It’s amazing material. You couldn’t find it anywhere else in Japan, and it’s just lined up there, unedited, but it works. Yeah, there’s real passion there. –Exactly. Speaking of which, what do you think will happen to Akiotakata’s channel after the mayor leaves? I’ve left it to the staff. Will it keep going? I believe it will. I believe it will. It’s hard to keep up the views without someone with the same passion, isn’t it? That’s right. Yes, so I was discussing that with the staff at the end. How to keep the subscribers and attract even more enthusiasm. It’s a media that works because one responsible person sends out a strong message. When you become governor, you’ll be on the front lines on YouTube, sending out messages. Of course. I declared this myself when I first became mayor, that in this day and age, a leader should be an influencer. They should be the most well-known person in the municipality, since they’ve been elected. And they have a responsibility. –I see. So I think it’s natural for me to take the lead and be at the forefront. It’s certainly a new era. With that in mind, is the Ishimari method, or rather, the Ishimari ism, being adopted as a strategy by the heads of various local governments? Yes, it is. It is. Are there any prefectures that are imitating you, or following your lead? Now that you mention it, it’s hard to say. No, not at all. I mean, they’re early adopters who are influenced by you and incorporating your ideas, in a good way. Early adopters. Yes. For example… Well, I don’t think he’s imitating me. But, for example, the mayor of Minokamo City, he’s young, but he’s created his own channel and does live streams. So there are people like that. But it’s an era where you can really see and deliver those kinds of things. –Right. Well, when you said the assembly battles would be different this time, the way it went viral… the confrontational structure was interesting, wasn’t it? And some of the one-liners were funny. I think people are expecting that kind of thing. But the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly is… I didn’t know much about it, so I looked it up, and it seems that the seats are heavily influenced by national political parties. It’s not just "heavily influenced." It’s like they fought the election campaign exactly like a national election. It’s a copy, isn’t it? –That’s the structure. The LDP and Komeito don’t quite have a majority. The second largest party is Tomin First. Yes, and then the Constitutional Democratic Party and the Communist Party, and then a few others… There are some with their own stance, but they’re a small minority. It’s an assembly where about 90 out of 127 members are from national parties. How will you deal with this national copy of a metropolitan assembly when you become governor? This is something I’m very hesitant to say myself, but I’m often told I’m "case-by-case." Ah, I see. Yes means yes, and no means no. Yes, and the reason I’m hesitant about the term "case-by-case" is that it’s usually used by people who aren’t actually case-by-case. The term has a very negative connotation for me. It’s become a bit of an empty phrase. Exactly. But when I say "case-by-case," I really mean it. Oh, so sometimes you’ll work with the LDP, and sometimes you’ll work with the Communist Party. To be precise, I don’t think about whether to work with them or not. Rather, I think this is good for the people of Tokyo. It’s the responsibility of the 127 members to express their opinions on the matter, and it’s up to the people of Tokyo to judge the outcome. It’s not my place to complain, so I don’t really care which way they go. It’s fine if they agree or disagree, it’s their responsibility. You’re separating yourself from the proposal. That’s all I’m responsible for. There’s talk of the mayor running the assembly, but that would be meaningless in terms of representative democracy. So you’re just making the proposal and leaving the approval and execution to them. I see. But in that case, for the first four years, there’s a high possibility that your proposals will be rejected again and again. In that case, in the next election, the assembly will be judged, and hopefully, people who will agree with you will be elected. Yes, it’s desirable, or rather, the awareness of the people of Tokyo will be tested. But the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly election is next year, I think, so even if it doesn’t go well, it’s not too far in the future that we can ask the people of Tokyo, so it’s a good lead-up period. One year to show the conflict, and then in the 2025 metropolitan assembly election… We can see things in black and white. Do you have any plans to create your own regional party, like Tomin First? No, I don’t. Why not? When I think about the essence of the dual representation system, I think it would be endless if the mayor or the head of the government were to create a ruling party. –Endless? It would be easier if I had a majority in my own support base or regional party, but making things easy is not the purpose of my job. The purpose is to implement good policies for the people of Tokyo, so I think it’s better not to do it because it’s easy to confuse the means with the end. So your idea is different from Koike’s and Hashimoto’s. It’s different. I’ve actually discussed this with Toru Hashimoto. He said it wouldn’t work unless I did it that way. You were advised on X, weren’t you? But I told him that I couldn’t do that, and I ended up saying something very naive. Huh, but is that like saying you don’t need an ISHIMARU for Shinji Ishimari, like YAZAWA is for Eikichi Yazawa, the ideal politician? That’s right, I’m fine, but I don’t know about ISHIMARU. I don’t know about me, running the assembly is different. But in a way, Koike’s method of creating Tomin First and getting things done that way… well, she wasn’t able to keep it as the largest party, so maybe she’s reflecting on that as well. Is it different from that? No matter what, when you create a regional party like Koike did, and you’re hoping to get into national politics like with the Party of Hope, your ambition is obvious. I think that’s disrespectful to the voters, and it makes them lose interest. It’s like you’re using it as a stepping stone. Yeah, like, "Do you want to be prime minister?" There are expectations that she might be the first female prime minister. But the appeal to national politics with the Party of Hope, including Tomin First, might have turned people off. That’s right. I see. Well, that in itself caused friction with existing national political parties. Yeah, that’s true. And is it really necessary for Tokyo to get involved in that? I want national politics to deal with national matters. We’ll take care of local matters. I’m not an expert on the relationship between the head of government and national politics, but Koike was originally so antagonistic towards the LDP. But in the past eight years, she’s somehow become a person who is secretly supported by the LDP. What happened? What happened? It’s said that she cooperated with the national government, like with the COVID-19 and the Olympics, and that’s the atmosphere here, but what do you think, Ishimari-san? All local governments cooperate with the national government. Even Akiotaka City has dealings with the national government through Hiroshima Prefecture. We go to each ministry with requests, so that’s not directly related to why we’re being supported now. Oh, so that’s not the reason. I think it’s purely a matter of her political stance. So after you become governor, you won’t be backed by the LDP in the next term? I definitely won’t be. Definitely not. Oh, really? I don’t think there’s a political party with the capacity to take in someone who is so opposed to the existing political parties. Are you that opposed? I think I am. In what way are you opposed? Because it’s a complete rejection of the old way of doing politics. Ah, in what way? For example, the so-called "nemawashi" is not a prior negotiation. What is it then? Well, in the context of government, when it comes to dealing with the assembly, it’s decision-making that’s not on the record. It’s a secret meeting. Backroom politics, is that what you call it? Are there any shady dealings involved in these secret meetings? Rights or something? I don’t know, I’ve never been to one, but maybe they’re talking about some fancy restaurant. Ah, so maybe there’s some kind of deal to get rights in exchange for something. I can only imagine, but making decisions in secret means it’s something you don’t want people to hear. That in itself is bad, as a politician. I see, everything should be transparent. And the fact that you’re denying the secret meetings and the "nemawashi" itself will probably be incompatible with the LDP and the old national government system. I don’t think it’s compatible. I think they’re thinking, "This guy is impossible." I’m looking forward to seeing the case-by-case battles on YouTube. Yes, please look forward to it. I’m looking forward to it. On that note, the second item. ”Urban development.” When it comes to urban development, it’s about solving the overcrowding in Tokyo. I think you’ve been asked about this a lot, but specifically, what kind of things are you thinking about? Well, there are a lot of points I’m singing about in this, but simply put, it’s about rebalancing and readjusting both inside and outside of Tokyo. When you say the problems inside Tokyo, are you talking about the gap between the 23 wards and Tama, and things like that? First, we need to adjust that, and then we need to adjust the gap between Tokyo and other prefectures. Yes, that’s right. Yes, oh, it includes both internal and external adjustments. There are many different approaches, such as housing, attracting businesses, taxes, and transportation. What’s the biggest issue? First of all, when it comes to the Tama gap, people are being sucked into the 23 wards from the west. This has been going on for a long time, and the 23 wards are getting more and more overcrowded, and the Tama area is starting to become depopulated. When that happens, if people don’t stay in Tama, the balance of Tokyo will be disrupted and it will become weaker, so we need people to stay there. And what’s needed for that? To give you a very specific example, free school lunches. Oh, starting this fiscal year, Tokyo is going to support municipalities that haven’t been able to provide free lunches. About half of the remaining 40% have decided to go for free lunches. It looks good on the surface, but it’s a huge problem. Because the municipalities that couldn’t provide free lunches even with the 50% subsidy are the weakest. If we leave this alone, the places that were able to provide free lunches with the 50% subsidy will have moved up a notch. The people in the places that were left behind, where the lunches aren’t free, are going to leave. In a way, it’s also abandoning them. That’s right, so this is something we shouldn’t do. It was a completely wrong policy. So instead of that, all elementary and junior high schools in Tokyo will be provided with free lunches by the metropolitan government, which will raise the bottom. Does that mean that the whole thing will be transferred to Tokyo? Can we save the whole thing? It’s better to prevent people from fleeing from the weakest areas. If we don’t do this, it’s like water keeps spilling out of a bucket with a hole in it, so we need to plug that hole first. This is an emergency measure for the outflow of population. First of all, it’s certainly a symptomatic treatment, but there’s a big hole, so let’s plug it. Yes, it seems like it would be a lot of work to rebalance things by doing this kind of thing individually. Yes, I think it will take time. To begin with, moving is something that happens occasionally in a person’s life cycle. So it’s not like you’re going to move tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. In order to increase the population through housing, you have to offer a lot of incentives, like making it easier to raise children or subsidizing money, so you have to offer incentives to the west side, otherwise people won’t go there. That’s right, it’s difficult because there are only two ways to get people to move: penalties and incentives. The carrot and the stick. It’s not impossible to lure people with incentives, but it’s quite expensive. And even if you do that, it doesn’t mean that people will definitely move, so it’s difficult to judge the effectiveness. So you can’t rush it, or rather, you shouldn’t rush it. Instead of saying, "We’ll give you money, so please come here," it’s more like, "This is a good place to begin with." What I’m thinking now is that I want each municipality in the Tama area to further refine its unique characteristics. This is an issue not only for Tokyo, but for the whole country. Japan is too homogeneous, and even in the countryside, people are looking towards Tokyo and yearning for the Tokyo lifestyle. But that’s not realistic, and if that’s the case, then everyone should just live in Tokyo. When that’s not possible, we need to differentiate between Tokyo and Akitakata. But we valued what Akitakata had that no one else had, so we should do the same. If we can find and refine that in each part of Tokyo, we’ll be fine. The reason why people are gathering in Tokyo now is because they think that Tokyo is the only place with charm. But Hiroshima has it, Kyushu has it, and if you look there, people will be able to shift in the long run. Certainly, you’re saying that we should do what we did in Akitakata in the depopulated areas of Tokyo. Yes, that’s exactly it. When I became mayor of Akitakata , the phrase I sang was, "The city people want to live in most in the world." What this means is that "wanting to live" is a subjective matter. Yes. It’s different for everyone, but it’s all good. But I created that phrase with the hope that people would cherish what they love and what is important to them. So if it’s subjective, you can win. That’s right. Tokyo will not be the strongest and the best. Certainly, but you’ve also said that you originally had a strong yearning for Tokyo. Yes, I used to. But did you have a change of heart somewhere along the way, where you thought, "Akitakata is good too"? Yes, but gradually. Oh, I see. As I left my hometown, I realized how important my birthplace and upbringing were to me. Certainly, and you were pretty clear about what you were selling in your hometown. Yes, that’s right. Sanfrecce Hiroshima, Kagura… And Mori Motonari. That’s right. As an administrative body, it’s better to narrow down the points to promote. There are many things that citizens like, but it’s not effective to attract people if you offer them everything, so I had to make the difficult decision to narrow it down. You’re good at narrowing things down. It’s very easy to understand. But yes, I think it’s meaningless if it’s not easy to understand. Right, if it doesn’t get through. That’s right. You have to communicate it, get people to understand it, and if it doesn’t resonate with them, they won’t move. Certainly, it seems like the politics of the past have deliberately made things difficult to understand. It doesn’t resonate at all. So that’s right. So, I understand the urban development part, but the last part is about industrial creation. Yes, industrial creation. I think you were mainly talking about education for industrial creation. It takes time to develop education, and it’s difficult to know how to spend money on it. It is difficult. Because it takes time, we have to hurry. Because children grow up so quickly, and the next generation is born, so we have to hurry as adults. What I’m thinking now is that there are two things I did in Akitakata. One is to improve the school environment. This is about work-style reform for teachers. Yeah, I hear it’s tough. That’s right, it’s tough and it’s not progressing at all. And when I asked why, they said they were too busy, so this year Akitakata started assigning lunch assistants and school janitors to all elementary and junior high schools. In other words, we separated the tasks that teachers had been taking on, but that could be done without a license. Tasks other than teaching. They were overworked, that’s why. During lunch break, they eat their own lunch while taking care of the students’ lunches, and there are always students who eat late. They have to take care of those kids, too, and stay with them. But the teachers don’t mind that at all, in fact, they say they enjoy it. But the reality is that it takes up time. And in the remaining time, they have to grade papers, and after school, they have to do other work, so we separated that. But it cost Akitakata City 20 million yen a year to do this. Oh, it still costs money. It’s 20 million yen with only 30,000 people. Tokyo has 500 times more people, so it would cost 500 times more. So 10 billion… –Wow, that’s amazing. But what we’re doing now with the 10 billion yen is just throwing it at the schools and forcing it on the teachers. That’s true. Teachers can’t get more than a certain amount of overtime pay, so they can be worked to death. The atmosphere and the way teachers work in Japanese schools today are different from international standards, since the Meiji era or something. That’s absolutely true. The Meiji era education system, even the grade system for elementary and junior high school students, is basically based on that, and even the style of blackboards and desks lined up in rows hasn’t really changed. Students cleaning, and so on. It hasn’t changed since I was in elementary school, and my daughter went to a Japanese elementary school for a year in first grade. That’s amazing. It’s completely different from Singapore. –Oh, is it? Completely different. They don’t even clean. Education in Singapore is divided into two parts: one is international schools and private schools, which are very expensive. They’re full service. The classrooms have all kinds of desks, monitors, iPads lined up, and so on. There are those expensive schools, and then there are local schools, where local kids take very difficult tests in elementary school, and the best ones are given scholarships to study abroad at universities. I see. And when they come back, they have to become bureaucrats. They work for a few years, and then they can go into the private sector. It’s quite rational. But the Japanese way of thinking is not bad, but it’s a bit old-fashioned. It’s quite old. Old isn’t necessarily bad, but times are changing, things are getting new, so if we don’t incorporate that, we’ll be outdated. For example, we were just talking about the Meiji era, but after the Meiji Restoration, Japan modernized rapidly, and it’s said that the basis for that was the high quality of Japanese education, especially elementary education. The high literacy rate, for example. I heard the other day that the literacy rate in London was 30%, while in Japan it was over 80%. There was that much of a difference, but now, as you just mentioned, iPads are lined up, and I’m worried about whether Japan’s IT skills are up to par with the global standard. That’s scary. The literacy rate of today might be IT literacy. That’s right. If we’re behind in this area, there’s no way the country can develop. In the past, Japanese people could read, write, and do abacus. But now, I wonder if our children can use computers. But this is what I was talking about earlier, teachers are the ones who teach. If the teachers aren’t updated, education won’t be updated. But the teachers are already exhausted. –That’s true. There are two ways of thinking about this: one is to provide support to all schools in Tokyo, and the other is the Singaporean way of spending money on excellent students. You allocate resources on a slope. Private schools are private, but even in public schools, you spend a lot of money on students depending on whether they are excellent or not. Are you not thinking about doing this? Not at the moment, or rather, I don’t think there is such an option, maybe because of the history of Singapore’s development, and I have a lot of respect for Lee Kuan Yew as a politician. Me too. I understand, but I think it would be difficult to introduce that in Japan. Certainly, it’s quite thorough. So, instead of that, I think it would be better to have a competitive principle in which everyone can participate. A competitive principle in which everyone can participate, that sounds interesting. For example, this is something I did in Akitakata, but I gave 1 million yen to the high school student council president. And I told them to do whatever they wanted with it. It’s like the childhood of Mr. Murakami of the Murakami Fund. His father gave him 1 million yen in pocket money all at once, and after that, he thought about money and became an investor. We’re doing that for the whole school. There are 186 metropolitan high schools, and they’ll probably have student council elections from this summer to fall. And they’ll make it their campaign promise. That means the responsibility of next year’s student council president will be much heavier. They can freely use 1 million yen. But they have to think about how to use that 1 million yen, and they have to run for student council president with that as their campaign promise. I think it’s interesting just from that point. The high schools that use the money in a lame way will be embarrassed. That’s right, they’ll be desperate. "Who’s going to be the student council president at our school?" The student council elections, which used to be forced on them by the teachers, will now be something they want to do themselves. It’s not like the current elections, but there will be voices like, "You should do it," or "Atsuhiko, you should run," Or "You can do it." And then the number one person is chosen. That person can move the school, with 1 million yen. I see. And one thing I’m thinking is that since there are 186 of them, I want them to compete. You were talking about ranking them earlier. So, you’re going to award the top schools? Something like that. If you win first place, you get double the amount. That’s great entertainment. As expected. The entertainment of politics, it sounds like something out of a movie or a novel, giving out 1 million yen to the whole country. But this game doesn’t create losers. Why? Because no one is doing it now. They’ll get 1 million yen to start with. And everyone starts at the same starting line. And then they do it. The most interesting person gets to do it this year. But next year, we’ll start from scratch again, from the student council elections. Then high school students will be more excited than they are now. You mentioned the Murakami Fund earlier, and they might come up with interesting ideas and become great entrepreneurs in the future. That’s true. Or they might aim to become politicians themselves. It’s a big stimulus. That’s interesting. So, I’ve heard the three campaign promises, and they were very interesting. Thank you very much. On that note, I’d like to ask you about your roots. You’ve been a mayor, and there are many images of you from your time as mayor, but we often hear about the things that went well, but I’d also like to hear about the things that went wrong, the things you messed up. I wonder if there’s a core to that. Things that didn’t go well. Are there any? [Next preview] I watched your live debate yesterday. It was scary because it wasn’t edited. "So the media, which only deals with secondary information, thought it could move the world? Interesting!" That’s straight out of Hanzawa Naoki. –It’s not that far off. Where are your dreams? Governor? –I’m aiming for governor now. But what I really want is the true reconstruction of politics. Where do you see the winning strategy in the Tokyo Metropolitan Government for this political housecleaning?

この動画の前編・後編はこちら
前編：https://youtu.be/G_fXgIqQk_s
後編：https://youtu.be/uchAXu4ob7w

【中田敦彦×石丸伸二】都知事選の裏側を徹底分析。小池百合子氏の言動の真相、蓮舫氏の思惑とは？

【小池百合子さん対談】
前編：https://youtu.be/pW6hqDDhIVs
後編：7/1(月)公開

【蓮舫さん対談】
7/2(火)・7/3(水)公開予定

【東京都知事選2024】
前編：https://youtu.be/PF2YAJpIEwU
後編：https://youtu.be/l1IkUPzN0B4

【安芸高田市・石丸市長vs議会】
前編：https://youtu.be/kO4UA0TxJAo
後編：https://youtu.be/_YQc9m7U0Cs

【公式】石丸伸二のまるチャンネル
https://www.youtube.com/@shinji_ishimaru_1982

東京都 Tokyo Metropolitan Government
https://www.youtube.com/@tokyo

広島県安芸高田市公式チャンネル
https://www.youtube.com/@user-bp6sx4ft6h

中田敦彦主催のコミュニティ「PROGRESS」はこちら
https://www.nakataatsuhiko.com/discord

中田敦彦のトークチャンネルはこちら
https://www.youtube.com/@nakatatalks

中田敦彦公式サイトはこちら
https://www.nakataatsuhiko.com

撮影協力：リーガロイヤルホテル東京
https://www.rihga.co.jp/tokyo